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 Post subject:No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Thu Jan 24, 2008 2:59 pm 
 

Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:47 pm
Posts:5
Ok, this may not be popular with everyone here but I wanted to make a request for either a cracking tool for the VSEC security system or a removal of it alltogether.

I dont like the idéa of turning Uplink into a game where you have to play minigames to be able to complete the missions in the game. Uplink isnt about playing tick-tac-toe or any other minigames and I tihnk minigames that you cant bypass that in themselves can be increadibly annoying and frustrating (since the system shuts down for quite a long time if you cant make your way through in a few moves). The game should be fun, not annoying or frustrating. I actually abandoned my Onlink game after I understood that in able to complete the game I had to learn the minigame.

I think Onlik is a great mod (althou some bugs pop up now and again, but really few for a version 0.1.3 software ;-) but VSEC completely kills the mod for me. I play Uplink now with the 1.6.0 patch you guys made, its more fun since I dont have to tackle any annoying minigames to play.

Perhaps there could be an option to enable "hard mode" where VSEC was unhackable by any tool and "normal mode" where the " VDPin Cracker" could hack VSEC in its highest version (for us minigame haters)?

Thank you for your time and the great mod you made!


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:04 pm 
 

Joined:Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:06 pm
Posts:112
Location:Finland
M'eh, if you cant crack the VSEC just use this

If there are plans to add new security systems, I vote for less systems which need shitloads of expensive software to crack and more ones which require thinking instead of automatic cracking with a few clicks.
I mean, heck, in terms of realism the hacking in Uplink/Onlink is not very good, since most systems are bypassed almost automatically with a piece of nifty software. That's not quite realistic, since AFAIK (I'm not really an expert on this area :-/) hacking requires thinking, and besides it's annoying when I have to hack systems multiple times when I need to steal those big-ass files since my memory bank is always filled with huge amounts of software :-/

Maybe you don't agree, but I still vote for security systems which require thinking. Besides, I kinda like puzzles, riddles and that sort of things :o

EDIT: Maybe software like VSEC crackers could be made, but if they are made make sure they at least ain't cheap ;\


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:20 pm 
 

Joined:Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:16 pm
Posts:3
One Idea, not sure if its possible, but in the settings menu, allow for disabling/enabling of additions to the Uplink game through Onlink.


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:54 pm 
 

Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:47 pm
Posts:5
Quote:
M'eh, if you cant crack the VSEC just use this
Checked it out when I was looking around for a way to get by the VSEC. I dont like to rely on external programs to play a game.
Quote:
If there are plans to add new security systems, I vote for less systems which need shitloads of expensive software to crack and more ones which require thinking instead of automatic cracking with a few clicks.
I mean, heck, in terms of realism the hacking in Uplink/Onlink is not very good, since most systems are bypassed almost automatically with a piece of nifty software. That's not quite realistic, since AFAIK (I'm not really an expert on this area :-/) hacking requires thinking, and besides it's annoying when I have to hack systems multiple times when I need to steal those big-ass files since my memory bank is always filled with huge amounts of software :-/
Why not make it an option as I suggested? By that I mean that the games can be there in both hard and normal mode but tools are avaliable in normal mode so that you can bypass the games with tools.
Quote:
Maybe you don't agree, but I still vote for security systems which require thinking. Besides, I kinda like puzzles, riddles and that sort of things :o
I like minigames but I dont like having them forced upon me when I play a regular game. It feels like I am back in the early computer lab times playing mandatory puzzelgames. Didnt like it then, dont like it now. besides, the lights game are so incredible booring to play. Reversi might be fun thou ^^


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:56 pm 
 

Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:47 pm
Posts:5
Quote:
One Idea, not sure if its possible, but in the settings menu, allow for disabling/enabling of additions to the Uplink game through Onlink.
That would be even cooler and would allow for a fully customizable game. Might be alot harder to program but would allow you to create games with different difficulty!

Maybe the game could have some presets (hard, normal, easy) and then also allow for custom control that lets the user define just what should be on or off.

I really like your idea!


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:09 am 
 

Joined:Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:06 pm
Posts:112
Location:Finland
Well, yeah, I too vote for the option to disable/enable the minigames somehow, a compromise would make us all happy :3


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Sat Jan 26, 2008 4:59 pm 
 

Joined:Wed Dec 26, 2007 7:21 pm
Posts:12
Location:<SmartAlekLocationHere>
I agree with the dis/enable.
It's already there for the task manager.
Though, if you don't like java, this works perfectly.
VSEC is exactly the Lights Out Keychain puzzle.

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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Mon Jan 28, 2008 6:40 pm 
 

Joined:Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:47 pm
Posts:5
Quote:
I agree with the dis/enable.
It's already there for the task manager.
Though, if you don't like java, this works perfectly.
VSEC is exactly the Lights Out Keychain puzzle.
I like javascript way more than java, thank you! :P


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Tue Jan 29, 2008 12:37 am 
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Hopefully, once Miah/Tycho/everyone else who works on Onlink manages to implement the C++ compiler for the game, you'll be able to write your own in-game software, like a real hacker should! :P

-- Griffinhart

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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:28 am 
 

Joined:Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:17 am
Posts:3
Sorry for the thread necromancery, but I want to give my 2 cents.
Quote:
M'eh, if you cant crack the VSEC just use this
I just found an unsolvable VSEC, very nice.
Quote:
If there are plans to add new security systems, I vote for less systems which need shitloads of expensive software to crack and more ones which require thinking instead of automatic cracking with a few clicks.
I mean, heck, in terms of realism the hacking in Uplink/Onlink is not very good, since most systems are bypassed almost automatically with a piece of nifty software. That's not quite realistic, since AFAIK (I'm not really an expert on this area :-/) hacking requires thinking, and besides it's annoying when I have
Use exploit -> put rootkit / decrypt password.
The thinking is before the breaking in, IMAO. Maybe during the exploit creation, not when I use the exploit.
The lack of realism is in other things, not in the method.
Quote:
to hack systems multiple times when I need to steal those big-ass files since my memory bank is always filled with huge amounts of software :-/
Is the hard part of the game, to gain enough money to buy equipment/hardware.
Quote:
Maybe you don't agree, but I still vote for security systems which require thinking. Besides, I kinda like puzzles, riddles and that sort of things :o
Trully, I found VSEC a useless minigame.
Even worst than putting a "Tower of Hanoi" game as security system.
Quote:
EDIT: Maybe software like VSEC crackers could be made, but if they are made make sure they at least ain't cheap ;\
Why? If you like to play with VSEC, simply avoid to buy a cracker. Why the cracker should be expensive?
However the on/off switch for "puzzle mode" is better (ofc, still IMAO).


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:56 pm 
 

Joined:Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:06 pm
Posts:112
Location:Finland
Quote:
Sorry for the thread necromancery, but I want to give my 2 cents.

I just found an unsolvable VSEC, very nice.
Well, I'm sure Miah would be glad if you informed him of it so he could fix it.
Quote:
Use exploit -> put rootkit / decrypt password.
The thinking is before the breaking in, IMAO. Maybe during the exploit creation, not when I use the exploit.
The lack of realism is in other things, not in the method.
Well, like I said I know pretty much nothing about "real" hacking. Perhaps you're right.
Quote:
Is the hard part of the game, to gain enough money to buy equipment/hardware.
Pretty much, yes.
Quote:
Trully, I found VSEC a useless minigame.
Even worst than putting a "Tower of Hanoi" game as security system.
Well, yeah, it IS quite stupid, true. However, almost every other security system requires pretty much no thinking, VSEC forces people to use their brains at least a bit :I
Quote:
Why? If you like to play with VSEC, simply avoid to buy a cracker. Why the cracker should be expensive?
However the on/off switch for "puzzle mode" is better (ofc, still IMAO).
Well, there would be no need to make it expensive if there would be a on/off switch (in fact, then the cracker wouldn't be needed at all). However, if there won't be one, I vote for making the software expensive, since again it would again force people to use their brains (at least in the beginning, you know, most people could stress their brains a bit more than they do...)

EDIT: Dang, I messed up with the quotes... Well, probably it ain't too messy :3


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:01 pm 
 

Joined:Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:17 am
Posts:3
I hope that I wrote in proper english.
If I made some errors that made not understandable part of my post, tell me and I try to correct them. :)
Quote:
Quote:
Why? If you like to play with VSEC, simply avoid to buy a cracker. Why the cracker should be expensive?
However the on/off switch for "puzzle mode" is better (ofc, still IMAO).
Well, there would be no need to make it expensive if there would be a on/off switch (in fact, then the cracker wouldn't be needed at all). However, if there won't be one, I vote for making the software expensive, since again it would again force people to use their brains (at least in the beginning, you know, most people could stress their brains a bit more than they do...)
Not every one like the puzzle mode. So if you like it, you should simply avoid to buy the proper cracker even if is cheap.
Forcing a player to play to a maybe annoying minigame isn't very clever, IMAO.

Also lack of realism more than the others security systems.
I mean: is realistic that a security system cannot be break simply using brain... at least I think that you cannot write an input for a program than contain an asm shellcode and the proper return code. :)
Isn't realistic a "riddle" security system; the only "riddle" can be the password, if you wanna try it by hand (dictionary attack and bruteforcing attack are realistic).
Is realistic that every security system have an exploit (in the game: breaker and bypasser) that deactivate it.
Surely, the others security systems aren't realistic in the meaning/use, but the method is correct.


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Tue Jun 10, 2008 7:38 am 
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Joined:Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:00 am
Posts:1263
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry for the thread necromancery, but I want to give my 2 cents.

I just found an unsolvable VSEC, very nice.
Well, I'm sure Miah would be glad if you informed him of it so he could fix it.
Miah would be very pleased if you pointed out which one.

Miah might also release the possible permutations of VSEC if someone's willing to check if they are, in fact, solvable in X moves.


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Tue Jun 10, 2008 9:45 am 
 

Joined:Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:17 am
Posts:3
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sorry for the thread necromancery, but I want to give my 2 cents.

I just found an unsolvable VSEC, very nice.
Well, I'm sure Miah would be glad if you informed him of it so he could fix it.
Miah would be very pleased if you pointed out which one.
2 state, 4x4, arc mainframe, maybe console, i don't remember
x-x-o-x
o-o-x-o
o-o-o-x
o-o-o-x
i don't rember the color of x and o, but give the same results on http://www.anarkasis.com/rafa/luces/lightsp.htm, that say "no solution".
Quote:
Miah might also release the possible permutations of VSEC if someone's willing to check if they are, in fact, solvable in X moves.
Use this http://www.anarkasis.com/rafa/luces/lightsp.htm and check solveness. Isn't better than asking to someone else?


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 Post subject:Re: No more uncrackable security systems
PostPosted:Wed Jun 11, 2008 8:40 am 
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Joined:Sat Jun 03, 2006 3:51 am
Posts:1186
Website:http://griffinhart.livejournal.com/
Yahoo Messenger:Squall591
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Location:Look at my horse, my horse is amazing!
It is solvable. I just did it. Ten moves.

EDIT: Actually, Ten moves if the x's are lights on, six moves if the x's are lights off.

-- Griffinhart

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-- Demonchild, Angelkin, the Blackest Seraph, the Final Warrior

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