Last visit was: It is currently Thu Mar 28, 2024 3:16 pm


All times are UTC-05:00




Post new topic Reply to topic  [22 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject:Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:16 am 
Literally Nine
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:31 pm
Posts:1171
Location:The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location.
Hi folks,

I'm interested in knowing what sorts of games everyone is interested in, and/or what game elements you really want to see more of. I'll use my personal interests as an example:

Types (and Genres) Gameplay Elements
  • Conducts. I refer to the Roguelike variety. This is a great way to make a game more challenging without flipping some difficulty setting and ramping up the probability that some enemy will beat the crap out of you. These are basically bragging rights. Some people have beaten NetHack with some crazy conducts. For instance, "a wishless genocideless polyitemless polyselfless illiterate atheist weaponless vegan". You have no idea how difficult that combination would be. It's hard enough playing NetHack without these kinds of self-challenges.
  • Optional pacifism. This sort of ties into the 'Conducts' above, but I figure it's worthy of mention. Let me give an example. In Deus Ex, it's possible to play through the whole game with only one kill (though a certain game glitch can allow you to finish with no kills). You knock a bunch of people out, sure. But you don't have to kill them. You're given the option of using tear gas, telescopic baton, tazer, and other such non-lethal force to deal with dangerous situations.
  • Player-guided storylines. Few games do this these days, and even fewer do this well. The basic idea is that the player's decisions have a deep impact on the outcome of the game, and the outcome of the game is not entirely fixed. Oblivion tried to do this, and I think they did the job half-well. You choose how your character develops, what factions you join, and what quests you take on. However, these decisions don't have a truly serious impact. They're far more player-centric than I'd like to see. You do bad things, people begin to hate you. You do good things, and people shower you with praise. But this reaction is directed at the player. There's no over-arching change in the game world, just differences in how the player is forced to interact with it (persuasion, etc). And I find it bothersome that your character can be the guildmaster of EVERY guild in the game.
  • Flexibility. Tabletop games are the best example of this particular trait, because how things go is up to your imagination, within reasonable boundaries. It's very hard to pull off flexibility in a computer game, though roguelikes are especially famous for this. I think roguelike games can do this well because they're much more limited in how well they have to represent things. For instance, if you use zap a wand of cold in the direction of water, the water may freeze, forming a slippery and temporary ice bridge. The representation of this is as simple as changing the tile colour and symbol, so it can be implemented fairly easily. If you don't know what I'm talking about with this one, see The DevTeam Thinks Of Everything.
These are just a few of my thoughts. I'd love to hear what you guys think, because I think Codename "Cerberus" will be largely driven by what all of us want to see in the game. "Cerberus" doesn't just have to be about hacking computers. ;)

EDIT:
I forgot to mention one gameplay element that I absolutely loathe, which is actually the reason I don't play MMORPGs:
  • Grinding - Possibly one of the worst game design elements I've ever seen. I'll quote what the developers of Crawl have to say about this:
    Quote:
    Another basic design principle is avoidance of grinding (also known as
    scumming). These are activities that have low risk, take a lot of time,
    and bring some reward. This is bad for a game's design because it
    encourages players to bore themselves. Even worse, it may be optimal to
    do so. We try to avoid this!

    This explains why shops don't buy: otherwise players would hoover the
    dungeon for items to sell. Another instance: there's no infinite
    commodity available: food, monster and item generation is generally not
    enough to support infinite play. Not messing with lighting also falls
    into this category: there might be a benefit to mood when players have
    to carry candles/torches, but we don't see any gameplay benefit as yet.
    The deep tactical gameplay Crawl aims for necessitates permanent dungeon
    levels. Many a time characters have to choose between descending or
    battling. While caution is a virtue in Crawl, as it is in many other
    roguelikes, there are strong forces driving characters deeper.

_________________
- Tycho

Image


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 9:04 am 
 

Joined:Mon May 29, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts:266
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you just asking what stuff we like, or are you asking for ideas on how to incorporate it?


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:30 pm 
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:21 am
Posts:581
My favourite type of games are the ones that mix genres - you know, like an action game that includes RPG elements. Also, anyone ever played A Blurred Line? It really changes the game completely depending on the decisions you take. I also love the idea of parallel reality - I mean, think of how many hours people spend on games like WoW. When virtual reality is working for good, there would possibly be trully parallel worlds, where people would work and stuff, and sometimes spend their whole vacations (or life, who knows) connected to them. Maybe make it so we could wander through these parallel worlds? (i mean, that, of course, is if you ARE planning to make this an adventure, with exploring and stuff, instead of just a computer interface).

And, although I made all of the comments above, deep inside I think I would prefer the old style gameplay, with only a computer interface. Add ANYTHING you want, as long as we are still pretty much HACKING. Making it different could prove not only difficult, but would kinda destroy the reallistic feel this game has.

_________________
I'll see you on the dark side of the (ferrous) moon.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 2:40 pm 
Literally Nine
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:31 pm
Posts:1171
Location:The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location.
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you just asking what stuff we like, or are you asking for ideas on how to incorporate it?
Just as I say in the post. What do you guys like? Games, genres, gameplay elements, etc. It's our job to figure out if it should be incorporated into the game, and how it could be.

_________________
- Tycho

Image


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:08 pm 
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:21 am
Posts:581
Oh, one last thing I forgot to mention - I love neverending games even more than I love replayable games. You know, those games that when you think is going to be over, a whole new set of things happen - the epic RPG's are like that.

Of course, for this to work, you guys could give more chances in Cerberus than there is in Onlink - also, the autosave being optional is something quite bad (I would even say to make it so people couldn't mess with savegame files), for the game tension is a great part of the "uplinksh" feel.

_________________
I'll see you on the dark side of the (ferrous) moon.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 4:50 pm 
Organ Donor
User avatar
 

Joined:Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:47 pm
Posts:529
Location:Jawjuh
You should add some weird horror elements, like e-mails from the dead or white noise filtering.
Or maybe things like that guy in Neuromancer, who came back from the dead by having his brain uploaded to the Internet.

But on the other hand, since comedy, horror and post-apocalyptic are the only genres I like, my views probably aren't helpful in terms of setting elements.
Seriously, though, one thing I would do is to make the world actually a little more interesting. We really don't know anything about what society in Uplink or Onlink is like at all. On the one hand, the fact that everyone in the world has their criminal, education and medical records in central government databases seems to imply a dystopic cyberpunk police-state, but that's never really discussed or explored, and neither are the lives of the citizens. Do they spend their lives in a drugged-up haze? Have violent, Running-Man-esque bloodsports become the primo entertainment? Is all the production done by machines, leaving the humans to live lives of luxury and decadence? Do they live in tiny cubicles, enjoying virtual paradises through brain jacks? I, at least, would like to know.

Gameplay wise, it would be really cool if Uplink had a persistant world like Dwarf Fortress, though. Even after getting caught, the changes your previous user had made on the world would still stand.
Of course, that would require toning down a whole lot of what players are able to do. When it's so easy to shut down every company and emptied every bank account, it would make that a little less interesting.

_________________
Creative people must be stopped! (Latest Entry 7/31/11: "Fishsticks (18+))

Pleasantville by Night, a humorous horror web RPG


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 6:02 pm 
 

Joined:Mon May 29, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts:266
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you just asking what stuff we like, or are you asking for ideas on how to incorporate it?
Just as I say in the post. What do you guys like? Games, genres, gameplay elements, etc. It's our job to figure out if it should be incorporated into the game, and how it could be.
I like planning. I like games like Evil Genius or Theme Park where I can spend time laying out and planning what is going to happen, and see how it works.

I like games where more money doesn't equal better stuff. This is a flaw in Onlink in my eyes, where it's just do lots of missions, get money, get better gear, repeat. For example Fallout 3, where different weapons are suited to different playstyles; just having lots of money and buying the most expensive thing isn't always the best option.

I'd like to see Cyberpunk used more. Think Bladerunner down and dirty Cyberpunk, that type of thing. Morally ambiguous situations.

The ability to move ahead by exploring. Like in Fallout 3 (again) where you can essentially skip portions of the game through exploration, although there needs to be a balance because I missed so much content in that game because I wanted to see what was over the next hill.

Multiple ways to complete objectives. Not just approach objectives ala Crysis, but more like Hitman Blood Money, where you could silently strangle someone, trap their room with explosives, snipe them from afar and various other methods.

Choices with some impact on the game. In Far Cry 2, you occasionally got the choice of killing or not killing someone, or taking an extra mission or not, but it never really had any impact on anything.

Factions. Ever play Boiling Point? There were numerous factions; Government, Civilians, CIA, Mafia, Guerrillas, Indians, and everything you did in the game would affect your rating with each faction and how they would react with you. Be friendly with the Government and you will find more lucrative job options available, be friendly with the Guerrillas and find your journeys through the jungle a lot less stressful.

A big detailed world with good comprehensive background. I love Warhammer 40k, primarily because I love the stories and characters and all the little details that are included in the World. It makes it much more interesting to take part.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 8:08 pm 
User avatar
 

Joined:Tue Aug 11, 2009 11:20 am
Posts:44
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you just asking what stuff we like, or are you asking for ideas on how to incorporate it?
Just as I say in the post. What do you guys like? Games, genres, gameplay elements, etc. It's our job to figure out if it should be incorporated into the game, and how it could be.
I like planning. I like games like Evil Genius or Theme Park where I can spend time laying out and planning what is going to happen, and see how it works.

I like games where more money doesn't equal better stuff. This is a flaw in Onlink in my eyes, where it's just do lots of missions, get money, get better gear, repeat. For example Fallout 3, where different weapons are suited to different playstyles; just having lots of money and buying the most expensive thing isn't always the best option.

I'd like to see Cyberpunk used more. Think Bladerunner down and dirty Cyberpunk, that type of thing. Morally ambiguous situations.

The ability to move ahead by exploring. Like in Fallout 3 (again) where you can essentially skip portions of the game through exploration, although there needs to be a balance because I missed so much content in that game because I wanted to see what was over the next hill.

Multiple ways to complete objectives. Not just approach objectives ala Crysis, but more like Hitman Blood Money, where you could silently strangle someone, trap their room with explosives, snipe them from afar and various other methods.

Choices with some impact on the game. In Far Cry 2, you occasionally got the choice of killing or not killing someone, or taking an extra mission or not, but it never really had any impact on anything.

Factions. Ever play Boiling Point? There were numerous factions; Government, Civilians, CIA, Mafia, Guerrillas, Indians, and everything you did in the game would affect your rating with each faction and how they would react with you. Be friendly with the Government and you will find more lucrative job options available, be friendly with the Guerrillas and find your journeys through the jungle a lot less stressful.

A big detailed world with good comprehensive background. I love Warhammer 40k, primarily because I love the stories and characters and all the little details that are included in the World. It makes it much more interesting to take part.
I like the same things except

exploring

And I agree with the money bit, more money != better stuff. It should depend on what you like in terms of strategy, ie. aggressive programs like password cracker = more risk but easier and higher payout and then passive = lower risk but slower and good payout. Stuff like that that suits people's personalities not just more expensive and you get better things.

And when I say passive I mean finding the passwords on the internet or in uplink's case on a contact info server for example.

_________________
A programmer with dev cd. knows a lot of programming langs and can 3d model.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Thu Aug 27, 2009 11:09 pm 
Literally Nine
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:31 pm
Posts:1171
Location:The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location.
Yes, in Onlink, money induces grinding. This is indeed a flaw. I totally agree.

_________________
- Tycho

Image


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:18 am 
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:21 am
Posts:581
Quote:
Yes, in Onlink, money induces grinding. This is indeed a flaw. I totally agree.
Maybe a solution to that would be something like a partnership with Uplink Corporation? Something like, you have to give x% of the money you get per mission, but then you get some of your gear for free as you level up (e.g., higher level bypassers, better CPU's...)
Of course, you'd still need money for other stuff, like buying things from Uplink Labs.

Also, you're probably making the game so we aren't tied to Uplink corporation only, I suppose... so maybe the stuff you have access to depends on how much you are trusted in other organizations (government, black hats, white hats, etc)

_________________
I'll see you on the dark side of the (ferrous) moon.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 10:26 am 
User avatar
 

Joined:Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 pm
Posts:64
When it comes to Cerberus there are a few elements that come to mind that weren't/couldn't be implemented in Onlink:

More indirect connection with the outside world.(RPG)

I like how Uplink/Onlink never directly connects to the world, it is always viewed from the hacker perspective. However that indirect connection could be expanded upon greatly. For example by creating servers(nodes) who's names refer to their in-world use or adding that information inside the server for the player to find. Even more immersive would be specific mission types for a few such more public-based systems.(Think "hack the New York electronic billboard control center" where you get actual control over all the electronic billboards in New York)


Distributed power.(RTS influences)

In Uplink/Onlink all your power is focused in a single location(not taking external storage into account). Besides the fact that this is really stupid for a hacker, you are also very limited in both power and gameplay elements. Allowing the purchase of additional servers in multiple locations will allow for a greater sense of power mid-late game and add a lot of gameplay potential. Things such as multiple simultaneous hacks (on a single target) and DDoS attacks will now be possible. Also the capture of a server will not be a massive disaster mid-late game as it is in Uplink/Onlink.
Another possibility this opens up is the use of botnets. Buy one or make one and potentially sell it(either for a mission or by use of a general botnet market or both)


Building more complex systems.(RTS/RPG)

Currently Uplink/Onlink features a very simplistic hardware system based around the current technological developments. If Cerberus were based further into the future, that would allow for vastly more complex system designs. I'm thinking instead of working around components that form a system(motherboard, CPU, etc.), use interconnectable stand-alone nodes with varying properties and special abilities. So you could have a standard General Purpose node and then buy a cracking node with hardware acceleration for cracking and connect them together. That cracking node would then work like a piece of enchanted armor in an RPG. Adding not just general computational power, but also hardware accelerated cracking(Much more powerful when cracking then general power, but useless for anything else.).


Bring system defense to the foreground.(RTS)

Since using multiple servers will allow for AI focus on the capturing of servers to be more commonplace, the focus on defensive measures should be increased. Here again the interconnectable stand-alone node principal seems appropriate. There are of course lots and lots of possible defenses from hardware firewalls and traffic monitors to physical defenses such as locks, heavy metal casings, explosives/EMP. What defenses should be implemented however heavily depends upon the design of the rest of the game.


Overhaul the money making system.(Sim)

As mentioned the current system of making money in Uplink/Onlink has a partial grinding feeling to it. Since this is such a large portion of the game, multiple solutions will need to be combined to create an acceptable and varied system. My solutions are:

- Continues income.(Create some way to earn a continues stream of (low) income.)
- Increase mission variety.(If missions are more varied, they will feel less like grinding.)
- Create off-mission income.(Robbing a bank is pretty much the only way to earn money outside of missions in Uplink/Onlink. This has to change not only for variety sake, but also to increase the feeling of power.)
- Luck based income(Think online casino or lottery.)
- Random income(Random or scripted events that give money.)
- Investment based income(Could be anything from stocks to land and possibly combined with ways to influence through hacking.)


Focus on hacker power.(RPG)

I think what we all like about Uplink and Onlink is the feeling of power over others through hacking. However I do not believe that Onlink has pushed that nearly far enough. We are still very much bound to the limits set in the missions that are given to us. The changes we make in the world on our own accord have little to no impact or even feedback. What we need is a far greater sense of power and impact. I'm thinking of the following:

- Multiple options during missions:
--- Follow the mission.
--- Decide to take a little "extra" while your there.
--- Ignore the mission and take it all for yourself.
--- Turn against your employer(either as a counter-mission or by yourself for money directly)
--- Fake successful completion.

- Off-mission actions get more feedback.(Like news messages, servers going offline, companies going bankrupt, stocks being influenced, etc.)

- More off-mission possibilities to influence the world.(Change someones credit rating, destroy vital files and their backups to ruin a company(or maybe make a copy and sell it back to them), influence countries by attacking heads of state, etc.)

Anything that can enhance the sense of power the player has over the world(preferably gradually increase as the player gets stronger) would be great.


Implement viruses, worms, keyloggers, etc.

Hacking shouldn't be the only tool available to you. Using worms, virusses, keyloggers and more should also be in your standard arsenal. This will provide both new gameplay and new things to buy, upgrade and develop.



Optional:

Make use of money beyond useful investments.

Allow useless things to be bought with money. Anything from graphics upgrades for your terminal to real-world things such as cars, house decorations, or even houses themselves. This might give the player a reason to earn money besides to get more power(and then earn even more money). This also could be part of the end-game where getting even more power is either useless or impossible and thus money would become meaningless.



Ok, it has become more then "a few elements" :lol: . Though even now I'm still not satisfied my post is complete, it'll have to do for now.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 11:58 am 
 

Joined:Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:57 pm
Posts:175
AOL:DKWiz214
I definitely agree with everyone here about the removal of grinding. I also think factions are a VERY appropriate system to add to uplink. I mean, you work for various companies completely anonymously via the uplink mission board, but what if there were companies that you weren't anonymous with? The faction ratings would range from hated to loved, with the middle being unknown. They may offer software for cheaper (to help remove the grinding), offer higher rewards and more lucrative missions, or when they hate you they would refuse you missions and possibly even create missions designed to ruin you (hack your bank account and steal money, frame you for robbery, and you would have to retaliate - steal back the money, or delete the framing logs).

One thing that I like from FPS games is that you find your weapons as you go along. Generally, once you kill an enemy you have the option to pick up his weapon. Most weapons are commonplace, but occasionally you kill someone who has a rocket launcher or sniper rifle, which makes your arsenal that much better. What if you could do the same in Cerberus, except instead of weapons it would be hardware or software. In the process of taking down a central mainframe you discover a very handy piece of software lying around. Or after a server has crashed you receive an email telling you that they decided to replace the machine, and that ____ hardware is up for grabs for cheap or free.

Other than those, I agree with pretty much everything else people have written and I am very excited about Cerberus.

_________________
The light shall be your demise.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 12:58 pm 
 

Joined:Mon May 29, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts:266
Quote:
I definitely agree with everyone here about the removal of grinding. I also think factions are a VERY appropriate system to add to uplink. I mean, you work for various companies completely anonymously via the uplink mission board, but what if there were companies that you weren't anonymous with? The faction ratings would range from hated to loved, with the middle being unknown. They may offer software for cheaper (to help remove the grinding), offer higher rewards and more lucrative missions, or when they hate you they would refuse you missions and possibly even create missions designed to ruin you (hack your bank account and steal money, frame you for robbery, and you would have to retaliate - steal back the money, or delete the framing logs).

One thing that I like from FPS games is that you find your weapons as you go along. Generally, once you kill an enemy you have the option to pick up his weapon. Most weapons are commonplace, but occasionally you kill someone who has a rocket launcher or sniper rifle, which makes your arsenal that much better. What if you could do the same in Cerberus, except instead of weapons it would be hardware or software. In the process of taking down a central mainframe you discover a very handy piece of software lying around. Or after a server has crashed you receive an email telling you that they decided to replace the machine, and that ____ hardware is up for grabs for cheap or free.

Other than those, I agree with pretty much everything else people have written and I am very excited about Cerberus.
I think it was mentioned on the 'Future' board at some point, but it would be cool if you could hack delivery services and get hardware re-routed to a safe drop zone, where you could salvage it or sell it. If more companies selling software/hardware were introduced, you could even purchase something on there through someone's else's machine that you'd hacked and then get it re-routed to you. For example if certain hardware or software sold by legit companies had a 'heat' rating, that meant the feds would keep an eye on whoever bought it, you would have to either purchase it and not use it until the trace was called off/you broke the trace through a hack, or have to use other methods to obtain it. Might be another way to do 'Get so and so arrested' type missions, purchasing 'hot' goods through their machines.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 1:08 pm 
Literally Nine
User avatar
 

Joined:Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:00 am
Posts:1263
Quote:
I definitely agree with everyone here about the removal of grinding. I also think factions are a VERY appropriate system to add to uplink.
Adding factions without the grind sounds like an interesting challenge to me.


Top
Offline  
 Post subject:Re: Genres and Game Design Elements
PostPosted:Fri Aug 28, 2009 8:08 pm 
User avatar
 

Joined:Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:21 am
Posts:581
Quote:
Quote:
I definitely agree with everyone here about the removal of grinding. I also think factions are a VERY appropriate system to add to uplink.
Adding factions without the grind sounds like an interesting challenge to me.
What also makes factions interesting imo is the greater reflex the player's behaviour has on the game. You could be a "honest worker", and do things like defending companies. This way, virtually the only way someone would hate you was if you caused their hacking attempt to fail. Or, you could work for some, making others hate you. And you could even work only for yourself, which would mean everyone hated you, but you could get secret software, etc.

_________________
I'll see you on the dark side of the (ferrous) moon.


Top
Offline  
Display posts from previous: Sort by 
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC-05:00


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 26 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group
Theme created by Miah with assistance from hyprnova