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 Post subject: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 12:49 pm 
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If uplink and onlink were in java, we wouldnt have to worry about porting, multiple inheritances, and other c++ frustrations.

I am posting this mainly because I am currently learning java and thought how much simpler uplink would be in Java...

Oh yeah, I'm back... :D

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 1:31 pm 
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Java seems to run extreamly slow and hogs a lot of ram...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:00 pm 
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It is only as slow as the programmer who writes the code :D .

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:02 pm 
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If you plan to optimize it extreamly well then its great.
I only got a celeron 400 mhz with 160 mb of ram. :( Running windows XP (modded to look like Win-Vista longhorn) very well
Im suprized that the power supply is still goin after 7 years of 50% on per day...


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 3:36 pm 
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Java: compile once, run slow forever

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2006 7:27 pm 
 

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I agree with darkknight - large java apps seem to run slow on the general pc. I have a number of java based applications that run relatively slow on my machine (P4 D 940, 2 gig ram, 7600GT). Besides you'd have to re-write all the currently working code into java before you could continue to build more into the onlink addon.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 03, 2007 1:41 pm 
Just so you know, you brought this upon yourself. Dancefight.
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:31 pm
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In my experience, Java is primarily an educational language, like Haskell is. I realize universities have pushed Java enough that people are believing they can use it as a production language. It is not so. Java is slow, that is quite certain, especially in comparison to C/C++ software. Case in point, Boundless Planet is written entirely in Java. It's slower than molasses, and it's not even very special, either, because they have no decent effects. The blimps? They have propellers, but they do nothing. The blimps hover in the air precariously, with no apparent force keeping them there.

Java would be a very poor choice for any game, really, and believe me, C++ would definitely be the way to go. Yes, it requires more work on our part, because we have to port code to work properly on a given platform, but I think it's much better than having software with no room for improvement (i.e. Java code).

Just my two cents.

- Tycho


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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:23 pm 
 

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:31 pm
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Ok, I was going to wait a while longer to get more progress done before announcing this, but I've been working on a java version of Uplink/onlink. The main reason I have been using java is the ease in integrating in an online server.

Why would I be interested in running an online server? Perhaps an online version of uplink/onlink.

Ok, now that this is out in the open, I'd love to pick the brains of anyone actively attempting to mod/ build an uplink style game. if you have any interest in this project, send me an IM through this forum.

-Stoned Pengwen


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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:25 pm 
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Highly doubtful. You'd have to have rewritten it entirely from scratch. Do you have any proof?

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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 8:45 pm 
 

Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2007 11:41 am
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The smell rising from Stoned Pengwen's post strongly resembles the odor associated with that of CPUHacker's posts. I believe that odor is bullshit.


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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 10:00 pm 
 

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:31 pm
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basically I understand the fact that the undertaking that is recreating uplink completely in java is a massive undertaking, so I am building it systematically.

1. Due the inheritance and hierarchy in java's class structuring, I can build individual portions of code independently before combining them into larger sections of coding by extending the existing classes. This makes it easier to create the smaller necessary sections of code and ensuring they work, as I can test the methods that I create, as I create them.

2. I am currently attempting to create the more basic functions of the game, as I am more interested in creating a functioning program, rather than nitpicking the details. Should it come to it, and I have a little more support (I do have a few kids in my programming class helping me by write and debug code, but more hands on board can't help), I would like to implement the more complex features, such as lans, pc hacking, etc, but that's not what I'm focusing on now.

3. As of now I have methods and classes built to run a some of more basic hacking functions (break password, password tracer, log deleter, log modifier, file copier, file deleter, ip lookup tool, bouncing connections), along with setting up the security to trace any attempts made by users(random password generator, active and passive trace). I've been focusing on the actual running of the game, rather than fancy visuals and screens, so as of now I am running most of it through Eclipse's console with ascii (it actually is kinda cool, pretty retro, think wargames).

Anyone wondering how I plan on building a GUI, as coding them by hand is a pain in the ass, I am going to use a 3rd party GUI builder. I know this is supposedly a cop-out, but the rest of the coding has me plenty busy.

Don't expect onlink from me, but I am working at attempting to implement hacking gameplay in java. Think uplink lite. Eventually, should I get a static build running, I would like to implement it on a java server as well as expand upon it into a more rounded game.

If anyone has any questions directly relating to the actual programming and would like to help, please feel free to private message me. Before I get any questions to "post all of my code online," I'd like to say NO. I will share portions of code with people if they would like to contribute, however, I have spent a lot of time on this code, and I don't like the idea of opening all of it up to the public.

Anyways, there, I've said what I wanted to say.
-Stoned Pengwen


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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:11 pm 
Just so you know, you brought this upon yourself. Dancefight.
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Joined: Sat Apr 02, 2005 3:31 pm
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The obvious question is... "Why?" Why would you do this? I mean, really.

Uplink/Onlink already run fine on Mac OS X, Windows and Linux. So cross-platform development isn't the issue.

Uplink/Onlink run really quickly as it is, and with the Tosser improvements that I wrote, Onlink runs even faster than the commercial builds of Uplink. Further, Java is always slower than C/C++, so performance can't be the issue you're addressing.

Uplink/Onlink have reached a pretty stable stage. We've been addressing bugs as quickly as we can when we're not busy with other priorities (schoolwork, mainly). Most of the time, if a bug is discovered in a build, the bug is corrected by the next build. So stability couldn't really be the issue.

What is it you're trying to resolve?

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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2008 11:48 pm 
 

Joined: Tue Feb 26, 2008 5:31 pm
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The real reason for my development of this project is to expand my knowledge of java and apply the knowledge I am learning in one of my programming classes. Since java supports server and client style interfacing pretty easily, I'm mainly trying to implement a multiplayer "world." Basically, creating a static server stored world that players can connect into and interact with other players. This could lead to more dynamic action between players, making a hard coded storyline relatively unnecessary. Also, since the majority of the actual files will be located on a server, updating is as simple as updating the file server, and changing the reference files within the client.
Java and it's server interface also allows the incorporation of irc channels and possibly even a working email system.

It's kinda an experiment into multiplayer dynamics if the players have more direct input into the world. My final goal would be to have this program up and running within the next 4 months and on a server, even if only for a short period of time to see if it could succeed.

I don't know, I just kinda imagine a game in which you could be hacking through the academic database, and run into another hacker, kinda like hackers (1995). I always thought if uplink had cooperative play, if not full blown multiplayer, the game would be more engaging.
Imagine having six different players hacking separate systems in order to shut down certain backup and security systems a corporation has in place to protect it's central mainframe, so another user could upload a virus.

Anyways, I'm gonna stop watching this board for a while and get back to programming.

-Stoned Pengwen


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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 12:55 am 
Just so you know, you brought this upon yourself. Dancefight.
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Seems like it'd be better to work on a programming language that isn't... crappy? Don't get me wrong here. I'm really excited about your ambition on this project. I just think it could be put to better use. Let me try to explain my point of view here.

Java is impractical. It generates "bytecode" for a machine which doesn't exist. So basically, the Java Virtual Machine is an emulator for a nonexistent piece of hardware. Having years of experience with emulation myself, I know that there are many different tricks to getting things working with any efficiency. There's straight interpretation (slowest method) all the way to JIT compilation (fastest, but still not native method). But since it's emulation, it's never going to be as efficient as the original implementation. Not having an actual piece of hardware to emulate makes the specifications somewhat loose and difficult to target for.

I've taken a Java class before. At the time I took the class, I had known C++ for quite a few years, it was very simple to grasp Java having known C++, and I aced the class with a 100%. However, I can say with complete certainty that Java programmers will have great difficulty learning C++. They stumble over such basic concepts as pointers.

I mean, seriously. A friend of mine is an engineer at Intel. I had suggested to him that Java was perhaps a good beginner's language. He once told me of the experiences he had trying to train Java programmers to do C++ programming, and he said, "They were pretty screwed up after learning Java. We had to basically just start over with them and teach C++ from the ground up."

I don't like Java as it stands. It covers up too much of the internals, and how things really work underneath the many pre-created classes and utilities available. The very feature you toted earlier (easy server-client programming) is something I loathe. It teaches you nothing about how the program is actually working, and there's no room to optimize it. If you see a flaw in how something's designed, you cannot change it. It's a fixed predesigned and predefined class. In C++, you're given the lowest level API possible without getting hardware-specific. I've written CrissCross to be easy to understand and to use such low-level APIs and behave precisely the same way on any platform that the programmer builds on. CrissCross has two socket classes (TCPSocket and UDPSocket), for instance, which are basically C++ class wrappers for the C API. Because of this class-based wrapper, I'm able to manipulate it to behave precisely how I want and to add exceptions for behaviour on different platforms (PowerPC's big endian byte order, for instance). There's so much more control available to me with C and C++. Java's far too restrictive.

However. Despite all this sour talk about Java, I want you to know that I appreciate your ambitions to develop something of such a magnitude. I just don't think you'll do well with the language you chose to use.

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 Post subject: Re: Up/Onlink in Java...
PostPosted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:55 am 
 

Joined: Thu Feb 28, 2008 2:00 am
Posts: 13
I resent Tycho's remark about Java being pushed especially hard at universities. At least where I work (University of Wollongong in Australia) we certainly teach Java, but push the idea that languages all have strong and weak points.

In particular, the subjects dealing specifically with game programming are all quite practical and are definitely not taught in java. Although, we have been known at times to use java as an unwitting trap for people in exams and so on. We have also used it in speed comparisons.

Other than that, I'd have to say that I heartily +1 Tycho's thoughts.


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