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     Post subject:Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:35 pm 
     

    Joined:Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:19 am
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    Definitely a nice mod although it has it's issues. At first the technical ones are pretty obvious, with random CTD and lags. But I can get over that.

    A few gameplay elements I never quite liked. Sure, it's ok to challenge the player with problems, but the whole idea of a game is you show the player how something works and then the player makes out the rest.

    Well this is kind of broken with the logs. I have no bloody idea how those logs are checked, if and when.

    A million questions are raised, such as - if I hack an internal service machine and bounce through a bank, will the bank log be revealed? Or if I bounce through a competitive bank corporation's mainframe on which I have root access? Or how about one I DON'T have root access?

    How about bank tracing? I hacked a bank and about 10 real life and in-game minutes later I was caught. Sure, but I thought tracing the logs takes hours? Of course I have the additional buffer of a user, who won't notice the missing money RIGHT AWAY? I thought I had some time to clear the logs - so how fast are the logs traced anyhow?

    How effective are different methods of removal? If I leave an empty log is there a difference if there were a shifted log? How about connections without a beginning log? Are they EVER followed, and if so, when?

    Then again, how about leaving supposedly innocent logs. Suppose I hack into a machine and delete, with shifting, the admin logged on log. Meaning there's just a connect and disconnect - will that lead to a trace?


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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 4:20 pm 
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    Joined:Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:40 am
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    Quote:
    Definitely a nice mod although it has it's issues. At first the technical ones are pretty obvious, with random CTD and lags. But I can get over that.
    Onlink still isn't finished. Onlink's current version is 0.2.0 - alpha 8 revision 15.
    Quote:
    A few gameplay elements I never quite liked. Sure, it's ok to challenge the player with problems, but the whole idea of a game is you show the player how something works and then the player makes out the rest.
    Quite a bit of Onlink is trying to figure out how something works, or how to get past a certain security system, etc.
    Quote:
    Well this is kind of broken with the logs. I have no bloody idea how those logs are checked, if and when.
    If: Logs are always checked.
    When: After a hack.
    Quote:
    A million questions are raised, such as - if I hack an internal service machine and bounce through a bank, will the bank log be revealed? Or if I bounce through a competitive bank corporation's mainframe on which I have root access? Or how about one I DON'T have root access?
    Logs are recorded in the order of "First bounce - Second bounce - <rest of bounces> - Target" and read in the opposite direction. ("Target - <rest of bounces> - Second bounce - First bounce) I believe this is what you're asking. Also, you only need to break one link of the chain (Usually, people start their first bounce at internic, as InterNIC has no monitor and doesn't trace logs)
    Quote:
    How about bank tracing? I hacked a bank and about 10 real life and in-game minutes later I was caught. Sure, but I thought tracing the logs takes hours? Of course I have the additional buffer of a user, who won't notice the missing money RIGHT AWAY? I thought I had some time to clear the logs - so how fast are the logs traced anyhow?
    Banks have a very fast passive trace, much faster than most systems. Also, simply deleting the connection logs isn't enough - you must delete the statement logs at both a: The account you're transferring money from, and b: the account you're transferring money to. Also, you should move the money to the Uplink Bank ASAP - an account at any other service with a large, unexplained sum of money will get you jailed.

    How effective are different methods of removal? If I leave an empty log is there a difference if there were a shifted log? How about connections without a beginning log? Are they EVER followed, and if so, when?
    Quote:
    Then again, how about leaving supposedly innocent logs. Suppose I hack into a machine and delete, with shifting, the admin logged on log. Meaning there's just a connect and disconnect - will that lead to a trace?
    Disconnect/connect logs won't get you jailed. That's like if you got arrested because you entered and then exited a bank a few minutes after it was robbed. It's not enough evidence.

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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 6:08 pm 
     

    Joined:Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:19 am
    Posts:8
    Quote:
    Logs are recorded in the order of "First bounce - Second bounce - <rest of bounces> - Target" and read in the opposite direction. ("Target - <rest of bounces> - Second bounce - First bounce) I believe this is what you're asking. Also, you only need to break one link of the chain (Usually, people start their first bounce at internic, as InterNIC has no monitor and doesn't trace logs)
    Thanks for your effort, but despite the first impression, I know how a LIFO stack works.

    What I don't know is what kind of servers can stop a passive trace. I'm not quite sure about it, but bouncing through a bank and doing a low-profile hack shouldn't get you disawowed/warned even if there was a log clear back at you. Something about banks not wanting to reveal data. But this mechanism was never explained, so...


    As per Onlink not being finished, I know. Then again, that's also introversion's fault, by part. They had an idea but they didn't really know what they wanted to create, so they kind of messed around with design and code until the game looked right.

    If the dev team had a full time job on this I'd suggest rewriting Uplink from scratch and recycling the gameplay ideas, but in general open-source games (expecially storyline-based or single-playthrough kind) are a bad idea, because of their nature.


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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:12 pm 
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    Joined:Mon Oct 13, 2008 8:40 am
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    Quote:
    What I don't know is what kind of servers can stop a passive trace. I'm not quite sure about it, but bouncing through a bank and doing a low-profile hack shouldn't get you disawowed/warned even if there was a log clear back at you. Something about banks not wanting to reveal data. But this mechanism was never explained, so...
    I don't think any servers stop passive traces. I believe the explanation was "The corporations hire hackers to trace the logs." Which is something you can be hired to do at a certain point in the game (I forget which rank...)
    Quote:
    As per Onlink not being finished, I know. Then again, that's also introversion's fault, by part. They had an idea but they didn't really know what they wanted to create, so they kind of messed around with design and code until the game looked right.
    Yeah... the original coding is really strange.
    Quote:
    If the dev team had a full time job on this I'd suggest rewriting Uplink from scratch and recycling the gameplay ideas, but in general open-source games (expecially storyline-based or single-playthrough kind) are a bad idea, because of their nature.
    They are doing a rewrite.

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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:30 pm 
     

    Joined:Sun Jul 06, 2008 9:19 am
    Posts:8
    I was thinking more along the lines of a complete rewrite. What they'll be doing is tidying up the code, if I understand correctly. I was thinking more of a complete new game based on uplink's design.

    The thing about Uplink is that it knew not to be too serious. Most of the stuff is done hollywood-style. And that pretty much worked - because I'm still not convinced there'd be a whole undiscovered market of people who, when asked for the definition of fun, reply with something in the lines of "Writing a masked encoded buffer overflow shellcode that doesn't trigger the game's security auditing monitor because it'll use a statistically correct sequence of English words". Uplink managed not only to make a game about hacking, but make the hacking itself not just a stupid minigame, but a whole innovative gameplay mechanic on it's own right. But hey, writing something like Uplink from ground zero is massive effort.


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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:58 pm 
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    Quote:
    I was thinking more along the lines of a complete rewrite. What they'll be doing is tidying up the code, if I understand correctly. I was thinking more of a complete new game based on uplink's design.
    /palmface

    Did you even read the linked post, or the blog post that the linked post links to? Heck, did you even read Vaius' post? They are doing a complete rewrite. (FFS, that's what a "rewrite" is. Complete!)

    In fact, they are doing a completely new game based on Up/Onlink, if the hints they've dropped are anything to go by.

    -- Griffinhart

    PS. Banks have always had a ludicrously fast passive trace time. Actually most of your complaints about banks are holdovers from vanilla Uplink (except for the auditing thing, but I don't think you mentioned it).

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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:02 am 
     

    Joined:Thu Apr 28, 2005 3:57 pm
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    AOL:DKWiz214
    Seems to me like most of the complaints here seem to be present in Uplink as well, with the exception of the technical issues of course. The only thing Onlink changed with respect to logs or traces is auditing of bank accounts, which might be how you got caught.

    This thread reminded me how excited I am for Cerberus, whenever/whatever it is.

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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sat Dec 19, 2009 6:15 pm 
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    Joined:Thu Nov 17, 2005 4:40 pm
    Posts:64
    archont Does bring up a nice point of discussion for Cerberus. Personally I'd very much like to see a tracing system that is based on multiple types(active-admin, active-automatic, passive-admin, passive-automatic, etc.), all with multiple layers(based on priority, security capability of target, etc.).

    Also the system shouldn't be 100% foolproof, especially the automatic traces. So without user intervention it should still be able to fail. Speaking of user intervention, that should really get more layers as well. The fact that Introversion had to add Internic to make the system work really speaks for itself on this one.

    Now there are a lot of different ways this could work, but they all depend on the gameplay. For example, if the suggestion of multiple open connections makes it through, the player might hack both the target and an easy target in the bounce at the same time. Then after the first connection is disconnected delete the logs of the easy target and disconnect. Now the reason why this would work is because the easy target doesn't have automatic trace systems. The only way an active and then passive trace could start is if the admin came online. Of which the chances are low on such a system. If that should happen though, you'd have to quickly hack an easy target in the second bounce and try the same.

    This approach seems like much more exciting then the current one. You're constantly hoping the Admin doesn't logon and you have to deal with multiple connections. It will really change the way you look at the world. Easy targets will really be easy as they will likely not even trace you, while hard targets are behemoths with multiple admins 24/7. Really exciting will be when dealing with multiple targets as well. It also opens up the option for things like trojans and virusses that can be used to delete logs remotely.

    On a side-note, the password system should really change. I never understood why every system except for the tutorial server and Internic revoked your admin password after logging off. I'd like to see servers without automatic security not revoke unless the admin is on, and servers with automatic security only if it isn't bypassed or an admin is logged on.

    What also would be REALLY cool is admins belonging to multiple systems. Meaning they deal with security for multiple servers belonging to the same company. This would open up the possibility of distractions meant to keep an admin busy while you hack another one of his systems. These distractions could come in the form of DDOS attacks, virus/worm infections, trojans activating on your command, etc. Another possibility would be to knock out or even destroy one system and let the admin be distracted with the rebuilding of that server. Systems with even higher security might have multiple 24/7 admins requiring distraction.

    The possibilities are nearly endless, but I see multiple connections, far more sophisticated and diverse tracing systems and admins acting as humans as really important for the gameplay.


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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Sun Dec 20, 2009 2:57 pm 
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    Joined:Sat Jun 06, 2009 1:21 am
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    I second Holland_is_mad one hundred percent! :classy:

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     Post subject:Re: Kind of meh
    PostPosted:Wed Dec 23, 2009 11:48 am 
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    Joined:Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 am
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    Quote:
    On a side-note, the password system should really change. I never understood why every system except for the tutorial server and Internic revoked your admin password after logging off. I'd like to see servers without automatic security not revoke unless the admin is on, and servers with automatic security only if it isn't bypassed or an admin is logged on.
    Hmm?

    Last time I played, they don't, if you remove all the logs like "Admin logged on" from the log of the machine you're cracking and don't allow a trace closer than about 50-60% complete. Although, the ISMs change passwords damn fast, and they're all always new when you load a game to continue, which is a pain in the arse to re-crack.


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