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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:39 pm 
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Joined:Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 am
Posts:204
Quote:
What first one ?
Sorry, ignore that, I misinterpreted the pics.
Quote:
Hilarity.

There's a bug here, alright. It actually makes this system easier for you.

/me rages
So, what's happened wrong?


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:40 pm 
 

Joined:Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:09 pm
Posts:25
K, so in that example, again, a 3-click solution set (i'd love to see the 7-click ones if you can manage). Even Fraps it up so Miah gets what he was asking for, too.

B1, A2, B4 which was OFF, ON, ON. Keep 'em coming, while I try to get my Onlink reinstalled and catch up with a new profile.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Tue Jun 02, 2009 4:43 pm 
Literally Nine
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This bug both helps and hurts. If helps you on some grids and makes it difficult to explain what the rules actually are.

Incidentally, it's a one-character fix. Figures.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:06 pm 
 

Joined:Mon May 29, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts:266
It seems to be bugging out and acting like V2 sometimes for me.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Tue Jun 02, 2009 5:26 pm 
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Joined:Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 am
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Quote:
This bug both helps and hurts. If helps you on some grids and makes it difficult to explain what the rules actually are.

Incidentally, it's a one-character fix. Figures.
I thought it was a bit random.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:29 am 
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Well, I found a Vsec 3.0 in the latest alpha.

I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be this easy...

X= light on O= light off.

Start:
Code:
XXOX XOOO OOOO XOOO
With edge wrapping, the button to click is the topleft hand corner.

So I click it, and it disarms. What happened to this evil, hard to crack system?


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:33 am 
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Joined:Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 am
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Yahoo Messenger:hexagon_in_hell
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I agree, it is much simpler in this latest release, every time i try i can disarm it, ranging from one click to seven clicks, it works every with the solver, maybe this is bug, ... again.

I,m waiting for Youtube to finish uploding a video of the thing, then i'll post it.

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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:23 am 
Literally Nine
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Location:The vicinity of an area adjacent to a location.
@hexagon: Nice userbar. :3

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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:46 pm 
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Joined:Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 am
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Yahoo Messenger:hexagon_in_hell
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@ Tycho : Thank You.

As far as i can figure it out for the vsec 3.0 ( at least for release 45, admited buggy ),
the rules are as folow :

click on lighted squares until the penultimate where you press a darked square, and the last is also lighted.

So, as a general example: for a 3-click-solve: Light-Dark-Light
for a 4-click-solve: Light-Light-Dark-Light
... and to infinity and beyond ( or 11 clicks )

All the solving clicks are taken from the solver i posted earlyer in the thread.

An example from the game:

This is from a puzzle with a 5-click solution


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This is the puzzle that was presented when i entered the console for an ACS


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This is what the solver told to be the right combination and the order that i clicked


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The first click - On a lighted square


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The second click - a lighted square


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Third click - a lighted square also


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The PENULTIMATE square, click four - a dark square


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The final click, click five - a light square, obvious


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And of course... Nirvana :mrgreen:


Just as an aditional note, i did encounter a three-click solution where all squares where lighted before i pressed them.

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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:11 pm 
 

Joined:Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:09 pm
Posts:25
Maybe hex; however, I completed a 5-move solution one where it was
OFF OFF OFF OFF ON (Dark Dark Dark Dark Light).

Lights were initially on in {0,8,0,0} or 0000, 1000, 0000, 0000, meaning that by regular Light's Out rules you had to push That light and every light around it. I had {A1, B2, A3, D2, A2} as the sequence, which was OFF, OFF, OFF, ON when checking just before pushing it.

I had been working on possible factors such as which column you push in which order, which row (same), the number of lights on including the target square when considering when to push it...

Since we know the last light pushed will always be ON and surrounded by 4 other ONs, can't we sort of Toss out the final one for determining rules?

Hex, have you run across any patterns multiple times (and had the opportunity to try different orders of the solution set) ? Also, any 7-move ones? What about the lockouts? D'you have any patterns and orders of clicking for times you've locked the VSEC 3?


EDIT:----------- In case it's not apparent, I'm using Decimal conversions of the binary rows and grid coordinates because i'm too lazy to screenshot and upload.
Here's a 7 move pattern I locked out:
Pattern: {13,9,8,8} = {1101,1001,1000,1000} Solution Set is: 7 moves {9,3,12,8}. I successfully pushed {A1, C2, B3, D1, A4} and got locked out when I subsequently tried D2. The other option for the solution at that point was to push A3, which I ignored because I was trying to test the 'not in same row' idea. From a # of lights on perspective A3 and D2 were identical choices.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:39 pm 
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Joined:Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:03 am
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I know, i know, my theory is rather simplist compared to you'res, i just captured what i saw as an obvious rule.
Quote:
Hex, have you run across any patterns multiple times (and had the opportunity to try different orders of the solution set) ? Also, any 7-move ones? What about the lockouts? D'you have any patterns and orders of clicking for times you've locked the VSEC 3?
Aparently (now i question my self) i never bodered to document some failed attempts.
I did a many 7-ones and i even managed a couple of 9-ones, but on those i tend to screw up the order in which to push the lights.

Anyway, i think that until we have a release with a good working vsec (without any bugs) we can't really figure the whole pattern out.

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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Thu Jun 04, 2009 6:25 am 
 

Joined:Mon Dec 19, 2005 4:06 pm
Posts:112
Location:Finland
IMHO it's quite pointless trying to figure out the pattern, since the VSEC 3.0 is pretty damn buggy and acts like a 1.0 at times : p

I have given it a try myself, and I _think_ I have found an universal pattern, but I can't say anything for sure until Miah fixes the thing.


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:32 pm 
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Joined:Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 am
Posts:204
Well, I'm going to type up the Vsec 3's that I think weren't bugged, to provide more data for those wishing to test out any theories. I've disproved all my own theories so far.

'm going to do them in X and O form and will show each step and the change, as well as LOCKED if the step failed. These are all from the Ferrous Moon ACS.

Key: X=light on, O=light off. I will give the co-ordinates of the button I pressed.
Code:
Vsec 3 No. 1 ABCD 1 XOXO 2 XOOO 3 OOXX 4 OOXX Button pressed D4. ABCD 1 XOXX 2 XOOO 3 OOXO 4 XOOO Button pressed B2 ABCD 1 XXXX 2 OXXO 3 OXXO 4 XOOO Button pressed D1.LOCKED.
Code:
Vsec 3 No. 2 ABCD 1 OOOO 2 XXOO 3 OOXX 4 XOOO Button pressed A4. ABCD 1 XOOO 2 XXOO 3 XOXX 4 OXOX Button pressed B3. (Here I screwed up the method, and pressed a button that didn't go towards solving the pattern.) ABCD 1 XOOO 2 XOOO 3 OXOX 4 OOOX Button pressed A3. LOCKED


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:48 pm 
 

Joined:Mon May 29, 2006 6:11 pm
Posts:266
Hawk, you've been pressing lit buttons I see.

Here is a conversation I had with Miah, which I think shows that lit buttons shouldn't be able to be pressed:

Miah to Swi1ch; grey square does... nothing?
Swi1ch to Miah; nope
Sw1ich to Miah; like V2
Miah to Swi1ch; :|
Miah to Swi1ch; internal failure
Swi1ch to Miah; blue squares respond
Miah to Swi1ch; and they don't... lock?
Swi1ch to Miah; Nope
Miah to Swi1ch; internal failure :|


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 Post subject:Re: VSEC Solvers, redux.
PostPosted:Fri Jun 05, 2009 5:59 pm 
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Joined:Sat Nov 17, 2007 8:45 am
Posts:204
*nods*

Maih also mentioned something about a reverse lock.


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