Ferrous Moon
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VSEC Solvers?
http://www.ferrousmoon.com:80/forums/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1481		 Page 1 of 3
Author:  SuperBunny [Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:00 am ]
Post subject:  VSEC Solvers?
WHY doesn't he want people to know?

I don't even understand how those VSEC patterns work. Not everyone has the talent to look at the pattern and solve it in their mind. I'm one of those who can't figure it out. I can't even always do those lightout vdpin ones without a solver. and without assistance, it makes onlink unplayable.

I'm one for getting someone to think for themselves, but it's like requiring in the game for you to sift through programming language and find the mistake with no references to work with. some might understand enough to do it, but not everyone.
Author:  Miah [Wed Oct 01, 2008 5:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Regarding VSEC Solvers
I'm not saying to can't use google. In fact, google will solve most of your woes.

Nay, I'm only saying to not give free handouts. If people are given the answer, they won't even bother trying the system out. If it drives you crazy enough, you can do your research independently.

You know it's a form of Lights Out. You know it's 4x4. You know it wraps. Just work from there.
Author:  SuperBunny [Wed Oct 01, 2008 11:49 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Regarding VSEC Solvers
actually a google search for vsec just brings up stock market webpages and the like. nothing involving what this context is

and most lightsout searches I try only bring up electronic devices that let you play it, not solutions for it, and absolutely nothing for wrapping versions of it.

Don't be vague. saying "it's out there on a search engine, go find it" doesn't help.


...I still don't see why it's not allowed to give direct links to solutions. you allow it for vdpins, so yet not this. pretty serious double standards going on. Or at the very least, see if someone could get the wiki link to actually work. none of the images for that page work, and most of it is empty anyway. makes one think that you don't want anyone to beat it.

Hey I know. maybe take the password cracker out, and make us all randomly figure out the passwords, or have all the filenames on servers be encrypted with an algorithm, and make us have to manually decypher it to readable text. you already did it with bank accounts after all.
Author:  Miah [Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:18 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Regarding VSEC Solvers
If you don't know how to refine your searches, again, that's not my problem.

I advise you not continue down this road with me. Do not speak of double standards when the standards fit the game.
  • VSEC was designed to be much easier: it's 4x4, wraps, has a maximum steps of 11, and has only a static set of puzzles.
  • VDPIN is 5x5 and has a MINIMUM steps of 10. It does not wrap, and is dynamically generated
  • VDPIN also has a tri- and quad-state form, something that VSEC will never have.
  • VDPIN has a cracker in the game. VDPIN solvers are therefore, a moot point.
The wiki is managed by the community. If you're not finding what you want, then research your issue, find your answer, and post it on the wiki so that others can use it. I have never deleted solutions to the VSEC systems. Check the logs. The images just got tanked when we moved the wiki.

The VSEC system has a maximum of 11 steps to a solution, with interface feedback. On the flip side, the password breaker that you're trying to compare it to has 72.3 trillion possible answers, given the character set it presently has. No interface feedback, no chance at hand cracking it. Therefore, there is and always will be a tool for it. (your argument is a logical fallacy, by the way. It's called "slippery slope")

So there's that.

Oh, and yes, bank account passwords ARE scrambled. However, they are FAR from unbreakable. I guess that's something else you haven't found how to do. Maybe you could try asking someone nicely.
Author:  Rickton [Wed Oct 01, 2008 1:27 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Regarding VSEC Solvers
Quote:
actually a google search for vsec just brings up stock market webpages and the like. nothing involving what this context is

and most lightsout searches I try only bring up electronic devices that let you play it, not solutions for it, and absolutely nothing for wrapping versions of it.

Don't be vague. saying "it's out there on a search engine, go find it" doesn't help.
The very first item that comes up in google for "Lights out solver" is, well, a lights out solver.
Quote:
Or at the very least, see if someone could get the wiki link to actually work. none of the images for that page work, and most of it is empty anyway. makes one think that you don't want anyone to beat it.
When the wiki switched from IO.IN to Ferrous Moon it screwed up some references to puzzles. It wasn't done intentionally. The wiki can be edited by anyone, and in fact is provided so the community can edit it and put up information, not for us to put up all the information. Complaining to us about the wiki isn't going to change anything.
Author:  SuperBunny [Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Well how do I refine my search for such a rare form of the game? as far as I know, this is the only game that uses a wrapped version of lightsout.

I have nothing against vdpin. I can do those eventually, it helps that there's no maximum number of tries. I only use the built-in fixer for that with the multi-colored variety.
but that's my point with double standards. It seems fine to assist alot with those, but not for the vsec variety that by it's nature you seem to need to know the answer to before your first click or else it locks you out? there's little or no room for error with them.

Here's one constructive idea. if you don't offer tips on beating them, then add a software in the game that lets you practice them. or some webpage that doesn't trace you and lets you try random ones that don't lock you out of the system for hours game-wise before you can try again.

Just doesn't seem fair that vdpin has alot of assistance for it, but we're left to fend for ourselves with a much tougher variety of it.

And last I checked, those bank accounts were encrypted to prevent us from hacking into a bank and finding out all the account numbers to leech from without getting them through a mission or from someone's personal computer, and that you couldn't decrypt the garble. Sounded like he removed that part from the game to make it less easy to get filthy rich quickly, though did sort of make hacking admin accounts on banks rather useless. but oh well. that's a different topic.
Author:  Rickton [Wed Oct 01, 2008 3:43 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Hm. Yeah, the maximum number of tries is kinda lame, I could see an argument for taking that out since you're on a time limit anyway. Some people have to figure those things out by doing.
Author:  FinalWarrior [Wed Oct 01, 2008 9:52 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Quote:
Well how do I refine my search for such a rare form of the game? as far as I know, this is the only game that uses a wrapped version of lightsout.
Ironically, this "rare form" of Lights Out is based on a real Lights Out game product. I've found several solvers for this very version of the game (4x4 edge-wrapping), and at least one version of a solver that lets you customize your Lights Out game (i.e., change the number of columns, rows, have edge-wrapping on only the top and bottom or only the left and right, have multiple states, etc.), and I didn't even have to look past the 20th Google search result. Don't blame Onlink or the Onlink devs for your laziness.
Quote:
And last I checked, those bank accounts were encrypted to prevent us from hacking into a bank and finding out all the account numbers to leech from without getting them through a mission or from someone's personal computer, and that you couldn't decrypt the garble. Sounded like he removed that part from the game to make it less easy to get filthy rich quickly, though did sort of make hacking admin accounts on banks rather useless. but oh well. that's a different topic.
Quote:
Oh, and yes, bank account passwords ARE scrambled. However, they are FAR from unbreakable. I guess that's something else you haven't found how to do. Maybe you could try asking someone nicely.
So, uh, that's a moot point.
Quote:
Hm. Yeah, the maximum number of tries is kinda lame, I could see an argument for taking that out since you're on a time limit anyway. Some people have to figure those things out by doing.
Actually, you're not on a time limit, if you do things properly. The only servers I've found that use VSEC are Gateway systems, and if you use a Monitor bypass, you have essentially unlimited time to solve the puzzle.

I agree with the sentiment about have some way to practice the puzzle within the game, though.

-- Griffinhart
Author:  Rickton [Wed Oct 01, 2008 10:26 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Quote:
Actually, you're not on a time limit, if you do things properly. The only servers I've found that use VSEC are Gateway systems, and if you use a Monitor bypass, you have essentially unlimited time to solve the puzzle.
Well, the VSEC itself could come with some sort of built-in time limit.
Or give it a "reset" button perhaps, if it doesn't already have one.
Author:  Mursu [Thu Oct 02, 2008 1:36 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Quote:
Quote:
Actually, you're not on a time limit, if you do things properly. The only servers I've found that use VSEC are Gateway systems, and if you use a Monitor bypass, you have essentially unlimited time to solve the puzzle.
Well, the VSEC itself could come with some sort of built-in time limit.
Or give it a "reset" button perhaps, if it doesn't already have one.
Nah, no time limit. It's hard enough already.
Author:  5706z4b1 [Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:31 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
This link is good [DELETED FOR SECURITY REASONS]

Easy to use :mrgreen:

Click on "Mode" for changed a Current Mode in "create"

Puch the different button

Re-click on "Mode" for changed a Current Mode in "Play"

Finally, push the Solve's button and click on pink/blue's button from left to right starting from the bottom

PS : Sorry if my englich is bad, i'm french so escuse me please, thanks :)
Author:  Rickton [Sat Oct 04, 2008 10:10 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
You know, you posted this in a topic where we discussed how lights out solvers shouldn't be posted...
Author:  5706z4b1 [Sun Oct 05, 2008 6:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
why have i not allowed to help ?
Author:  mc2m [Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:19 am ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Quote:
why have i not allowed to help ?
Read this topic from the beginning before asking...

Also, all the VSEC patterns and some of the solutions are on the wiki (Miah helped me). I let you find the rest of the solutions without using the "easy finding solution" website :wink:.
Author:  FinalWarrior [Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: VSEC Solvers?
Quote:
why have i not allowed to help ?
It's not so much that you're not allowed to help, it's that you're not allowed to post what is essentially a blatant, game-breaking cheat. Miah doesn't mind that you help (in fact, he encourages us to solve VSEC puzzles and post their solutions on the wiki), he just doesn't want solvers posted.

-- Griffinhart
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